Lockers, articulation and traction

[BackBone]

Hey guys, I've spent way too much time wheeling on the internet so I finally got the Mounty out on the trails and did a run with a friend up Rowher flats. Lots of hill climbing as we went to the top using an access road off of Bouquet Canyon Rd.

First off, I am thankful that I did the 4406 swap as having low range made the hours of climbing less stressful on my engine and transmission and led to needing less of the skinny pedal to get over obstructions.

What I did take away from my "first time ever" wheeling event is that at times I had trouble gaining traction. This was usually due to a wheel coming off the ground or not having as much weight on it causing the wheel to spin easier. My LSD in the rear is not tight (260+k miles) so I was almost open front and rear. In watching my friend go ahead of me - he was in a lifted Land Rover with good articulation but with open diffs - I noticed that he rarely spun his tires because he was able to keep all four wheels on the ground most of the time. Of course, with the added clearance and articulation, he was able to navigate much more difficult lines than I could. Nevertheless, I also noticed at times his tires spinning making obvious his lack of lockers.He was impressed with the Mounty, though. And I never got stuck. I just had to choose my lines carefully and also follow his spotting. I made it up every hill! My wife and kids were with me. My wife told me that I better not sell my Mounty! She said it was awesome! She understands now what I was doing out in the driveway!

Choosing the right line is the name of the game. With the right line then you are going to have traction. Traction is awesome! If you have traction then you can move. All four tires on the ground is awesome. If you have all four tires on the ground then you have more traction than if a tire is in the air.

Now to my point - or maybe question: While my buddies rig did great, I am never going to have the articulation up front that he has. I know for a fact that the reason I lost traction was because at some point one wheel of an axle stopped spinning while the other spun without much traction. I feel that if I had a locker in the rear, that I may have never slowed in the areas that I spun tires in. Yet at the same time, I also believe that if I had more flex in the rear that would have helped as well.

My conclusion is that I need both articulation and a locker in the rear especially because there isn't much I can do for articulation up front short of SAS, and a locker up front is costly and can cause damage if not used properly. I know I can get some limit straps up front and will be doing that, but it seems most of the work has to be done in the rear of the vehicle.

Eventually down the road, I'd like to swap to higher gears (4.56's) and would do a locker at the same time. For now my plan is to beef up the LSD, bodylift - which I did not want to do, but now realize that it will help with tire rub during articulation and also help if I move up to 35's instead of the 33's - and quick diso the rear swaybar for flex.

I would like to practice choosing the right line on flat ground as opposed to going up hill to reduce "pucker factor".

What do you guys think? Am I thinking correctly here? Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated.

Looking forward to my next run!

 

[colintrax]

I'd look into lockers before suspension work. A tire touching the ground doesn't mean it has any weight on it. Invest in some quality tires as well.

A rear locker and better (expensive) tires will make a huge difference. My advice for choosing lines... Stay in 2wd as much as possible.

 

[BackBone]

I'd look into lockers before suspension work. A tire touching the ground doesn't mean it has any weight on it. Invest in some quality tires as well.

A rear locker and better (expensive) tires will make a huge difference. My advice for choosing lines... Stay in 2wd as much as possible.

Thanks. My research is leading me to lockers first, then other mods. It will be a while before I can afford lockers. And seeing that I need to re-gear anyways, it will be even longer before I can get that done. I will do the Limited slip rebuild with larger packs to increase friction for now.

 

[gmanpaint]

I think your on the right track with the direction your wanting to go. I see your already running 33's and have the 4wd T-case mod done. I'm just going to pretend your still completely stock, and throw some things out there.

Lockers, & tire choice are your traction aids. Keeping all four tires on the ground helps traction, but lockers & tires will do more with only 2 tires on the ground, compared to 4 with open/open axles. Real 4 wheeling begins with both axles locked, but just the rear locker will increase your traction and aid your climbs tremendously. (Since you have a 97, I would only use a selectable locker in the front.)

Lifting the vehicle is only for fitting larger tires. The Lower the height the better for climbing & off camber use. Of course, the larger the tire, the higher the axles / undercarriage is off the ground, which is what really matters. Body lift or suspension lift, whatever you can afford, they both work. They both have pros & cons.

Of course proper gearing to match the larger tires is equally important as everything else. Getting that crawl ratio higher helps the entire drive train. Since we have hardly any HP, this is a major must have Mod.

Best advice I can give is, take your time, do things as you can afford them. I would start in this order with 1st lifting the rig for the tires, do the sway bar disconnects in front & limit straps, Throw the rear sway bar in the trash, do the locker & gears at the same time, do any needed trimming & bumper work, then do the larger tires last.

Your probably thinking....Why tires last??

This will save your transmission, and your engine components unwanted stress/heat during the time it takes you to do everything. Gears and lockers are costly, and might take time to save up for them, but the "Want" to take the rig out to play/DD will be there everyday. Once you have these basic mods done, then work on all the little stuff, or slowly upgrade mods over time.

Unless of course your filthy rich, just do them all at the same time.

 

[2TimingTom]

My advice:
Wheel a bunch as is. You'll learn line selection. You'll learn how to stack rocks when you can't get over something. You'll appreciate getting over things open-open more than fully built.

Lockers, SAS and big tires. Any idiot can point their rig up a trail and go with that set up. If you want to learn how to be a better driver offroad, spend some time in the trenches with an open-open setup. Do 8-12 trips like that, then upgrade something.

When I was autoxing, the better drivers were the ones who spent a couple years in low powered cars with street tires. The new guys that showed up and ran race tires would get beaten by those street tire drivers after awhile.

 

[bronchole]

Let me add 2 things to your list:
1. Install a front and rear pull point. You will get stuck at some point and it is a PITA for someone to help you if you do not have a place for them to hook up to. Even if you do not get stuck, you may want to help someone else who is.
2. You didn't mention anything about airing down your tires. Look in to that. It makes a huge difference in traction and comfort while off road. Of course with that you need the ability to air back up when its time to go home.

 

[2TimingTom]

^^agree. You can get a MF-1050 or MV-50 pump at places like Peo Boys (or online) at a reasonable cost. Good pumps. I have the MF-1050.

Also look into the RCI skid plate. And make sure you have a gas tank skid plate.

 

[Flash]

As bronchole said, install pull points.

This is very important because if you don't get stuck sometimes in your learning period you're not being adventurous enough.

It seems to me you have your head in the right place. Mechanically your Mounty isn't going to stack up against a Land Rover but then the Landy will never be as good on the road. You're not talking about a Disco are you?

Skill (picking the lines etc) followed by rolling diameter then ground clearance are the important things when wheeling, IMO.

From what I've heard it's quite possible to build your LSD pack so that it's almost as good as a locker without the problems on the road.
If you fit extra clutches and discs don't forget to leave out the S spring so it doesn't drag.

 

[BackBone]

Let me add 2 things to your list:
1. Install a front and rear pull point. You will get stuck at some point and it is a PITA for someone to help you if you do not have a place for them to hook up to. Even if you do not get stuck, you may want to help someone else who is.
2. You didn't mention anything about airing down your tires. Look in to that. It makes a huge difference in traction and comfort while off road. Of course with that you need the ability to air back up when its time to go home.

Thanks! I actually have tow points in the front but only my hitch in the rear. I need to get tow points for the rear...

^^agree. You can get a MF-1050 or MV-50 pump at places like Peo Boys (or online) at a reasonable cost. Good pumps. I have the MF-1050.

Also look into the RCI skid plate. And make sure you have a gas tank skid plate.

Also, I did air down but only to about 20lbs. My buddy had a compressor on his rig... But I will definately get one for my own.

I have the tank skid. I need to put it back on since I took it off to do the T-case swap. I plan to modify the old T-case skid to work with the 4406. And I do need a front skid plate... thanks for this reminder because it is easy to forget the armor that is needed...

Great posts!

 

[BackBone]

From what I've heard it's quite possible to build your LSD pack so that it's almost as good as a locker without the problems on the road.
If you fit extra clutches and discs don't forget to leave out the S spring so it doesn't drag.

Yes. Summit sells the rebuild kit. That is definately on my radar!

 

[96whitesport]

Don't leave out the S spring, The S spring provides pressure to compress the clutch plates together. If you leave out the S spring, the clutches basically freewheel. Then its like not having a trac loc at all. I have had trucks and mustangs that are over clutched, it takes a bit to get the spring and spiders in, but if done correctly the trac loc will be almost as tight as a locker. The drag is what is important for the function. Another trick that I have used on vehicles not driven daily is using less friction modifier. The modifier allows slip in the plates, the less you use the tighter the grip as they do not slip against the steels.

 

[Flash]

Don't leave out the S spring, The S spring provides pressure to compress the clutch plates together. I

It's my understanding that when the clutch pack is 'overloaded' with extra plates and friction plates that the S spring is no longer necessary and its inclusion will cause difficulties with the operation of the clutch pack in on road conditions.
And that the S spring is installed to help the LSD 'spool up' so is no longer necessary after the clutch pack has been beefed up and already eager to engage. Leaving the S spring in only causes the modified clutch pack to engage too easily.

But I haven't done it myself, my LSD works fine the way it is.

So I'll step aside now and allow the people who have done it to discuss the results.

 

[96whitesport]

Adding extra plates and clutches is to tighten the locking action, if you had no spring you would need to shim as close to 0 axle end play tolerance as possible to get the "locking" action possibly causing damage to other components, the spring is there for a reason, I would recommend leaving it for reliability's sake. If you look at other manufacturers LSD's most use a spring device of some sort for pre-load, Eaton is one example, Chrysler sure grip is another. With overclutching the end game is to have the unit react quicker and lock sooner which will change its manners on and off road.

 

[BackBone]

Don't plan on leaving the spring out. Spider gears would have too much play otherwise. Too many shims and the pin will not slide in so hence the spring.

As far as the LSD upgrade, I plan on using the following links as guidelines

Clutch and Steel order explanation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GsLDg3C6Hc

How to install S-spring with thicker clutch packs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_TqMuV_MeA

Basic overview of the install process by Roadrunner777
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336162

Basic overview from RangerStation:
http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/rebuild_tractionlock.shtml

Carbon Fiber HD Ford Racing clutch kit:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-4700-c

 

[colintrax]

Thanks! I actually have tow points in the front but only my hitch in the rear. I need to get tow points for the rear...



Also, I did air down but only to about 20lbs. My buddy had a compressor on his rig... But I will definately get one for my own.

I have the tank skid. I need to put it back on since I took it off to do the T-case swap. I plan to modify the old T-case skid to work with the 4406. And I do need a front skid plate... thanks for this reminder because it is easy to forget the armor that is needed...

Great posts!

The hitch makes a perfectly good tow point. I actually ditched my front tow hook for a front mounted hitch.
20lbs is plenty low, if you're going any lower I sincerely hope you're carrying a spare tire.

 

[96whitesport]

That carbon fiber kit is awesome. have one in mine and use the extra clutches as outlined in the ranger station write up, the only hitch is I have 410s and getting the pin in is a bit tricky with that size ring gear. I use Castrol diff oil with the friction modifier in it already, used no extra and mine locks up tight and has been that way for about 5 years now. I don't DD it anymore, just a trail truck but it will react almost as good as a lock rite or aussie. Also the rear hitch is an awesome tow point, just get one of these

http://www.4wheelparts.com/Winches-....aspx?t_c=18&t_s=190&t_pt=5081&t_pn=S/B29312B

 

[2TimingTom]

20 psi- depends on what kind if tire. If it's a P-rated tire, yes that's low. If it's an LT tire, then it's about right. I air my BFGs down to about 20 psi. Others I wheel with go to 12-15.

On the tow hitch, just don't attach a tow strap to the tow ball. Those things can shear off and become projectiles. Attach the strap to either the receiver pin or get a shackle that fits in the receiver.

 

[BackBone]

Unless of course your filthy rich, just do them all at the same time.

Your avitar frightens me!

No, this is definately a budget build. Now if I could only sell the old AWD t-case and driveshafts, I could use that for more upgrades!

 

[bronchole]

OMG, that's what a bronchole looks like!

 

[BackBone]

On the tow hitch, just don't attach a tow strap to the tow ball. Those things can shear off and become projectiles. Attach the strap to either the receiver pin or get a shackle that fits in the receiver.

Plan on getting the shackle that fits the receiver.