4R70W shift kit or tuning?

[JoshT]

I guess this is kind of going to be a chicken or egg, which came first type of thread.

We just got done with the AWD V8 swap into my 99 Ranger last week. Got some bugs to work out, but so far I'm liking it. I can already see a few things that will have to change though.

1) Speed limiter has got to go. After running the truck on a "closed course" I realized that the speed limiter kicks in right at 90 MPH cutting either ignition or fuel. I won't often have need to go that speed, but I know in areas of the state the normal interstate traffic can exceed that. I want ability to keep up with, get away from, or get out of the way of the other traffic. As such, it telling me that I can't keep up won't cut it, especially not when it's still pulling strong right up to that limiter. Also I don't like nanny features telling me what I can't do.

2) Transmission shifting has got to get better, it's way too lazy.

3) Speed limiter has got to go. Did I mention that already?


The donor vehicle for this swap was a 2000 Explorer 5.0L AWD. EDIT: 180K miles on donor odometer. History unknown. Transmission still had dipstick knockout plug lying in the pan. Fluid was not burnt. Trans shifted fine for 100 mile drive home in donor with no signs of slippage. No signs of slipage in the 100-150 miles I've put on it since swap (and I've been heavy on the throttle), just lazy shifting.

I used ForScan to wipe all previously learned data in the PCM, when programming the PATS module after swap. Considering the stuff I fixed during the swap, I wanted a fresh start from the Explorer it was in. I know some vehicles in this era already did some learning and adjusting of shifting. Do these do that? Can I expect shifting to improve as I put miles on the truck? Not get great, but atleast improve or adapt to my driving style?

I will probably be getting a tuner for the truck to get rid of the speed limiter, I know that they can also tweak shift points and stuff for the transmission.

A shift kit would probably improve shifting a lot, but I just put the transmission in and filled it. I don;t really want to spend that kind of money on a relative unknown, atleast not before I've put several (maybe thousand) miles on it.

Regarding are transmission, are tuning and shift kit independent improvements, or do they need to be done as a pair.?Can I get improved shifting from a tuner now and install a shift kit later, or do I really need to install the shift kit first so that it can be accounted for in the tuning?

I would assume that the shift kit would probably have the bigger improvement, but I'd like to be a little more confident in the condition of the transmission before putting that money into it.

 

[vroomzoomboom]

you can firm up the shifts by increasing the line pressure with a hand held turner, but by only so much (and depending on what tuner you get, move the shift points as well). a shift kit will also make a major improvement without increasing line pressure.
i have had both. there are 2 different things you can do for a shift kit. buy a actual kit, or do what is called "the "J" mod" or "jerry mod". once again, i have had both lol. i had a transgo level 2 shift kit in one transmission. it was pretty firm, and would hit hard from first to second gear (would chirp the tires at wot), second to third was firm but not as violent.
the j mod, i found or at least for the trans that is was done for (in the truck now) is not as harsh, and if you can do it at home if you have the smarts to do it (and a trans is on my list of things i cant or trust myself to do).

J-Mod question, what does it do exactly - what are the...

www.tccoa.com

https://www.crownvic.net/tech/4R70Wnotes.pdf

 

[JoshT]

Thanks.

I haven't read through all that second link since I'm in my phone. It seems like there are different versions of the J-mod depending on year. The transmission I'm using us a 2000 model. I also have.

I also have a complete 1998 2wd Explorer 4R70W. I know that functionally they are the same, but I don't know how similar they are mechanically. Could I do the J-mod on the 98 valve body and swap it into the 2000 transmission?

My trans fluid is brand new. If I drain it into a clean container, I should be good to reuse it. I don't want to dump money into the transmission until I get some miles on it and know it's sound. The J-mod sounds essentially free though and if I can use the other valve body to modify it wouldn't have much down time either.

 

[JoshT]

@vroomzoomboom thanks for the links. They appear to be a good resources for performaing the J-mod, but I'm afraid that they and further research is leaving me more confused.

First off, I think I need to throw the notion of the J-mod being free, right out the window. Still cheaper than an off-the-shelf shift kit, probably better than those, and likely a welcome improvement over stock shifting. My fluid and filter both are brand new, so as long as I can catch it and keep it clean (I installed a pan drain plug) it should be good to reuse.

Year ranges and applications of valve bodies is throwing me off on doing the mod. Transmission in the truck is a 2000 Explorer AWD. I also have a 1998 Explorer 2wd transmission. Looking through the links, many say that it doesn;t apply to trucks. Would the Explorer 4R70W be considered a truck transmission, a car trasnsmission, or it's own thing. In the car transmissions it talks about pre or 98-up, obviously these fall in the latter year range, but are they the same as the car valve bodies.

I see information saying to swap valve bodies and to the J-mod on the new valve body, is that what I need to do. Is it as simple as installing a different VB? Would just installing a different valvebody make an improvement without the J-mod?

@CDW6212R is the only one I've seen clearly say that he has done the J-mod on an explorer transmission, but I haven't found the details of what he did yet.

What I've seen in the TCCoA forums, the work of this mod is definitely something within my capabilities. I am just having difficulty locating or determining exactly what version of the mod I need to go by, or if I would need to (or just should) buy a different VB to start with.

 

[CDW6212R]

The J'Mod is the main way to go for a 4R70W, given how long it's been around, and created by a Ford trans engineer. I haven't done the J'Mod, but I have done several other VB kits for the AOD, A4LD, and the 4R70W. I was doing those before the J'Mod came out, which was in the mid 90's I think.

The J'Mod should work in any 4R70W or AODE VB; the truck issue was a past thing with shift kits by various companies, they didn't all work in a truck VB, or for one case I found, a police CV AOD(those have a manual 2nd gear valve in them, instead of a manual 1st gear valve), a B&M shift kit was really harsh at light throttle in my 86 CV.

There are varying holes sizes you can drill for the J'Mod process, people on forums like the Thunderbird(TCCOA) debated what worked best for their cars. I made some notes ages ago, and later was told it isn't super critical that you match hole size of other people. I gather what's best is to replace the accumulators and their springs for the 1/2 and 2/3 shifting accumulators, make the J'Mod holes sized in the typical range listed in instructions, and do whatever VB upgrades you can from Sonnax kits.

The cost is minor for the new accumulators and springs, the reverse servo piston etc, and the J'Mod is your time. But the Sonnax parts are getting expensive now, about $100 last I looked. Plus Sonnax developed a new VB upgrade years ago which is not included in their big set of parts kit. It's about $75 and I think that's a really good thing to install, it varies the line pressure as the throttle is pressed harder. That means it doesn't make light throttle shifts harsh, but it adds more pressure as you get to WOT.

So I suggest the VB improvements, which can be done at any time at home etc, and finish with the PCM programming. The computer can alter the shifts and line pressure some, with a VB that's the best it can be and not leaking; the shifts should end up really nice(however you want them).

 

[JoshT]

I guess I read that wrong, or maybe you were just saying that you were considering and looking into it.

I haven't really looked into the Sonnax parts yet, but in past reading (may have been for 5R55E) I've seen the name crop up a lot. Which Sonnax piece is this:

Plus Sonnax developed a new VB upgrade years ago which is not included in their big set of parts kit. It's about $75 and I think that's a really good thing to install, it varies the line pressure as the throttle is pressed harder.

I'm guessing the line pressure booster kit (4R70W-LB1)?

And for the "big set of parts kit" you are referring to the Sure Cure Kit or the Zip Kit?

make the J'Mod holes sized in the typical range listed in instructions, and do whatever VB upgrades you can from Sonnax kits

Based on what I saw skimming through the j-mod instructions, I'd probably start out with minimum suggested drill size for all. See what improvement that gives before going larger. Can always take away more metal, but it's a little more difficult to put it back, especially on something like the seperator plate.

Sounds like I need to find a source that discusses both the J-mod and the Sonnax parts.

Also, would I be correct in thinking that my '98 2WD and '00 AWD valve bodies should be interchangable? That is assuming that both are actually the factory transmissions. If so it would make this process much easier as I could pull the '98 VB, do the J-mod and Sonnax upgrades on it, then swap it in.

 

[CDW6212R]

Yes, that Sonnax item 4R70W-LB1 is the one I meant is the newest upgrade and very desirable. That isn't in the Zip kit unfortunately, I'm not thrilled with the price of the LB1 kit either. That means that one thing in the Zip kit is not used if you buy that, they are for the same valve in the VB. I have both of them and plan to put those into my current 98 work truck when I retire and stop using it.

I'd use the VB which you think is the best, worked the best, lowest mileage, and didn't come from a trans with past issues. They are interchangeable but be sure the smallest "round" reinforcement plate is used with whichever you go with. Ford did away with that in the 2001ish range, which leaves a possible weakness(all fixed by adding the small plate, or the optional thicker VB plate).

You can make holes slightly smaller, using a steel ball and a hammer. I have done that for two holes way back in the AOD days, I slightly softened the 1/2 shift I think it was, using a TransGo HD kit. That was the best AOD kit ever, complicated but awesome driveability.

 

[JoshT]

Yes, that Sonnax item 4R70W-LB1 is the one I meant is the newest upgrade and very desirable. That isn't in the Zip kit unfortunately, I'm not thrilled with the price of the LB1 kit either. That means that one thing in the Zip kit is not used if you buy that, they are for the same valve in the VB. I have both of them and plan to put those into my current 98 work truck when I retire and stop using it.

I'd use the VB which you think is the best, worked the best, lowest mileage, and didn't come from a trans with past issues. They are interchangeable but be sure the smallest "round" reinforcement plate is used with whichever you go with. Ford did away with that in the 2001ish range, which leaves a possible weakness(all fixed by adding the small plate, or the optional thicker VB plate).

You can make holes slightly smaller, using a steel ball and a hammer. I have done that for two holes way back in the AOD days, I slightly softened the 1/2 shift I think it was, using a TransGo HD kit. That was the best AOD kit ever, complicated but awesome driveability.

Honestly, I'm not thrilled with the price of any of it, but it's going to have to shift better than it currently does. No slippage, just too lazy for lack of a better term.

Not really going to matter which I use then. I have no real history with either. Both transmissions were from V8 Explorers with around 180k miles. One was a '98 2WD the other a '00 AWD. I knew the previous owners of the '98 and they maintained it well, but when I got it had been rolled over and wasn't drivable. The '00 was a complete unknown, but it drove 100 miles home with no trans issues other than the same lazy shifting. Unregistered, uninsured, and lots of non-drivability related issues kept me from driving aggressive during that trip.

 

[CDW6212R]

Those both sound fine to use, the 180k is not great but that they had no known issues, that's the biggest plus. The 4R70W is very reliable, even with some common neglect. My last two 98 trucks have had the same typical mild shifting, that's normal.

If you upgrade the shift quality by making it firmer, that reduces clutch wear. If the VB has no future functioning issues, the trans can last a long time still. The wear of common parts is basically the clutches, solenoids, and accumulators(seals of them). The springs have been known to break with high miles, so replacing those is another wise move.

Doing the Sonnax VB upgrades greatly reduces potential future issues, which are the cause of 90% or more of all trans failures. That's why I keep suggesting those parts, those take care of most all needs, until the clutches(and etc) wear out. With top brand ATF, replacing the filter often enough, and full rebuilds should then be rare.

 

[JoshT]

Those both sound fine to use, the 180k is not great but that they had no known issues, that's the biggest plus. The 4R70W is very reliable, even with some common neglect. My last two 98 trucks have had the same typical mild shifting, that's normal.

If you upgrade the shift quality by making it firmer, that reduces clutch wear. If the VB has no future functioning issues, the trans can last a long time still. The wear of common parts is basically the clutches, solenoids, and accumulators(seals of them). The springs have been known to break with high miles, so replacing those is another wise move.

Doing the Sonnax VB upgrades greatly reduces potential future issues, which are the cause of 90% or more of all trans failures. That's why I keep suggesting those parts, those take care of most all needs, until the clutches(and etc) wear out. With top brand ATF, replacing the filter often enough, and full rebuilds should then be rare.

After chasing other issues for several weeks, I'm back around to this. Turns out that my engine was more worn than expected and a rebuild is in the works. I dropped of my spare block at the machine shop on Monday, and it'll likely be around 4 weeks before I get any news on that. Probably a few more weeks by the time I figure out and get what I'm doing for the heads, cam and intake. In the mean time I want to see what I can do to improve the shifting.

I found the following list for the J-Mod on a 4R70W Facebook group. From what I read the poster is VERY experienced with these transmissions and setting them up for various applications. These were his suggestions for someone with a 99 Explorer:

hole #1 - .160”
hole #2 - .081”
hole #3 - .180”
hole #4 and 5 - .093”
hole #6 - .160”
Hole 7 and 8 not needed
hole # 9 and 11 - .125”
hole #10 - .093”

I'm a bit lost on what I need/want for other parts & upgrades. Obviously need some VB and Seperator plate gaskets. You suggested the line pressure booster. Would it be safe to assume I'll get a lot of the other pieces with the Zip Kit. I understand your thoughts about the line booster replacing parts in the kit, but I think it still comes out cheaper than trying to buy all those individually.

What other parts should be replaced or upgraded while in there? I see people talking about accumulators, springs, solenoids etc. Modifying and replacing parts isn't a problem, but gets a little overwhelming trying to figure out what is needed or should be done.

 

[CDW6212R]

Thanks for that list of hole sizes, I hope that is a good group of sizes for the Explorers. We just need something that makes all of the shifts very solid, and after that any PCM tuning would fine tune as the driver wants.

You have a good grasp of the various parts that will be helpful for the 4R70W. The VB work is the most critical and tedious, plan to go very slow with that and do everything to organize parts and avoid making any mistakes. So make some notes and have some kind of pictures to work with, the ATSG trans manual is relatively small and low cost versus a huge Ford manual.

The solenoids all must be replaced unless they are very low mileage. The accumulators also have rubber seals which should not be high mileage. The accumulator springs are steel and reliable, but most people building a nice trans to be like new will replace the two main ones, the1/2 and 2/3 spring, the J'Mod recommends two parts that should be common to locate. The accumulators are hard to replace, the force to push them up from underneath the truck and R&R the steel snap rings is tough. I usually plan on that to find the best long big screwdriver and something on the ground to use for a rest while holding it up compressed etc. So think about that when you get to those, don't rush and figure on manhandling them really fast.

Do buy the zip kit, there are two big kits and one is for replacing work out bores that require special Sonnax tools. Read the descriptions carefully, it's not hard to tell the difference. You will use everything from that kit, except the one for main pressure if you get the special line booster kit also. That one takes the place of that one valve, reading the instructions should be obvious about which it is that overlaps the one in the kit.

 

[JoshT]

Thanks for that list of hole sizes, I hope that is a good group of sizes for the Explorers.

That is just a recommended list I found on a Facebook 4R70W group. His opinions seemed to be pretty well respected and seemed to have a lot of experience with the transmissions. That said it was on a Facebook group, so take it for what it's worth.

Based on other sources and your post above, here's the list I've put together of things to replace when doing the j-mod:
Sonnax Zip Kit ... AODE-4R75E-Zip ... ~$130 (EBAY)
Sonnax Line Pressure Booster Kit ... 4R70W-LB1 ... ~$75 (Amazon)
Molded Accumulator Piston Kit ... 049670 ... $30 (PATC)
* 1-2 Accumulator Piston
* 1-2 accumulator cover
* 2-3 accuymulator piston
Accumulator Spring kit ... ???
* 1-2 upper spring
* 1-2 lower spring
* 2-3 spring
Valve body gasket ... ???
Separator plate gasket ... ???
Torque Converter Clutch Solenoid ... BCA-4R70W-TCCV3 ... $24 (bcawebstore.com)
EPC Solenoid ... BCA-4R70W-EPCV2 ... $42 (bcawebstore.com)
Shift Solenoid Pack ... BCA-4R70-SSV2 ... $39 (bcawebstore.com)

Total: $340+

Yeah... If I do all that, it turns out jmod won't be nearly as free as is suggested. To be fair if I installed a shift kit I'd still be ordering and replacing many of the same parts for the same reasons, so jmod is still cheaper. Having said that this list will be for future reference. I've though about things since posting thursday and decided that the jmod is being put on hold for the time being, possibly until future transmission rebuild.

After starting this thread the engine was found to have low oil pressure. Tore down spare engine for rebuild and dropped the block with rotating assembly at machine shop on Monday. I'm looking to get a set of heads, a ported intake, and a cam, so that is going to add considerably to cost of rebuild. That is also going to nessitate the use of a tuner.

I also need to do some suspension work in the near future. Upper and lower ball joints are due for replacement. Probably going to get new TREs at the same time. I'll be dropping the ride height as low as practical for suspension. Tires for the lowered ride height. An alignment to pull all of it together.

Costs are adding adding up quicker than anticipated. I was always planning a shift kit and a tuner, still am, the question was which to do first or if I needed to do them toghether. Need is necessitating that I do the tuner sooner. Finances are strongly suggesting to do the shift kit later. Added power is likely to acellerate the demise of this transmission, so I may save the shift kit (or jmod) to be incorporated into a future transmission rebuild.

 

[CDW6212R]

I know how the current economics have hurt everyone to buy anything, that's our new normal.

I have been satisfied with my 302/4R70W's in three 98's, all survived to high mileage, with my severe duty usage. My current 98 eats oil just like it did when I bought it 87k miles ago, and my project 98 went about 95k before the water pump sidelined it finally.

If you don't have any critical engine symptoms, I'd try to go slow on the engine build for the cost issue, spread that out. The trans you can benefit from now if it's a worry, the early plan to upgrade the VB is great and will transfer to any future rebuild. Those parts are mileage dependent, you can reuse everything as needed from any work you do now. The PCM tuning will fine tune the transmission functioning, fine tuning the VB work etc. You don't want to do the tuning, then the trans, and have to retune again to fine tune that.

I don't know the current costs to build a SBF, I'd guess randomly at $2k minimum for minor upgrade stuff. The tuning might push you way over $500, some say they like to tune the existing Explorer PCM. I've read enough to make me worry about the actual tuning results for the majority of Explorer 302 combinations. I also don't know how well tuning a later PCM will work in comparison, but I'm hoping and expecting it to be better.

My Mark VII will have a comparable SBF drivetrain combination to the 302 Explorers, for that I'm converting the PCM to a 2004 Grand Marquis, which the best tuners love compared to early OBDII computers. But it does require rewiring the engine harness, which is an issue for some people and some cars. My Lincoln will have 2001/2002 Mustang wiring, merging an Explorer harness with it, and COP wiring. But it will otherwise be like an Explorer 302, the front dress, the 4R70W, long runner intake style, and EGR.

The tuning for that with Decipha current is about $450 as a one time fee through his site. That's remote by email tuning, no limit to adjustments, that is his current business model. I plan to only need one full tuning process for my Mark VII, the engine will be done and not change later. My Explorer will need several tuning changes, from three exhaust steps, to a supercharger, and later another exhaust, and new engine last. The 2nd vehicle you have Decipha tune will cost $300, and it's a little less for others after that. So I see a high cost for my first project for one tune, and fairly low cost for a bunch of tuning on my Explorer. That truck will be using a 2014 Ford PCM, hopefully a Mustang computer, but maybe just an F150 if he cannot tune the "Sport" transmission(new feature in 2014+ Mustangs) mode to work.


I'd vote for you to do the trans now, and go slow with the engine rebuild and tuning.

 

[JoshT]

If you don't have any critical engine symptoms

How's practically no oil pressure for a critical engine symptom? 10 psi (max) per 1000 RPM when at operating temp. If I'm running 2000 RPM it's 18-20 PSI. If I'm idling at 700 RPM it's around 7 psi. Has been verified with more than one gauge.

If I drive it nice and easy the engine might last for years like that, but I didn't build it to drive nice and easy. I also have the goal of driving the truck on about a 1000 mile road trip in September and don't trust the engine to make the trip. Lazy shifting is something that I can live with as long as the trans still works (it does). Spinning a main/rod/cam bearing half way through the trip due to low oil pressure is not.

I can for sure tell you that making the transmission shift better will not make me go any easier on the already injured engine. That would just werve to hasten it's demise. Then I might be stuck with an unusable vehicle until I can get the parts together to finish an engine build.

So basically I'm left with three options:
1) Fix/Build engine get tuned and retuned later for transmission.
2) Fix/Build engine, Shift kit in transmission, ignore tuning for now to possible detriment of engine.
3) Do shift kit in transmission and let engine **** itself while I take my time building replacement.

Yeah, I'll choose the first every time, cost be damned.

Engine block was dropped at the machine shop on last Monday. That process is already started. I'm hopeful to stay stock on bottom end. Top end will at minimum get a camshaft swap. Will know more once I get answers from people, but I know I will likely change more than just camshaft. I know that I will likely need tuning to support changes.

As for tuning. If he can still support the X2 devices as suggested on his site, I already had one for the 4.0L in the Ranger. It was unmarried prior to the swap so should be ready to install new tunes. I would need to verify with them that it is still supported. If not, I'll pick up a used X4 locally. I wonder if he also tunes holley systems? If so I may have a second vehicle for him. Guess I should sign up on the forum and ask about both.

Barring any issues, when the engine goes in, I'll be done with that part for a while. I won't be doing any power adders. Once I get suspension work and ride height set, I'll be dropping at exhaust shop to sort out exhaust. That'll be in the next month or two, while the engine is being built. Once the new engine is in I'll be finished with drivetrain for quite a while. If I don't do heads now, I'll probably never do them. I'm not chasing high power numbers, just a fun driver. Only other changes I can forsee is rebuilding transmission and/or adding a shift kit when needed, and possibly a gear change.

 

[410Fortune]

Is it carbon buildup /sludge causing the low pressure? Pickup screen blocked?
Are you running any solvents?
5.0 can run like that for years you still have 7psi!!! Hahahahahaha kidding aside, they are pretty tough

 

[410Fortune]

I Love the amount of planning going into the seasoned veterans (of this site) projects!

 

[JoshT]

Is it carbon buildup /sludge causing the low pressure? Pickup screen blocked?
Are you running any solvents?
5.0 can run like that for years you still have 7psi!!! Hahahahahaha kidding aside, they are pretty tough

Had valve covers and oil pan off before installing 2 months ago. No sludge, oil pan clean. To check anything else (IE: oil pump, pickup, bearings, etc) is practically going to require removing the engine. I could also likely iinstall a HV (not HP) oil pump and get pressure back up to acceptable as a bandaid, but that would practically require pulling the engine as well.

The plan was always to build a fresh engine for it after using current one to get the swap functional, I was just planning for more time between. When the engine comes out a fresh one will be going back in, regardless of the actual cause of the problem, so it's hardly worth digging further on this engine.

Can it run like that for years? Probably. Should it run like that for years? No. Would it always both me? Yes. Even without the dash needle bouncing like crazy idle. I would always be wondering when it's going to let go and be hesitant to do much with it.

If this were something that I was going to drive until it dies and scrap, I wouldn't care. But if it were that, I wouldn't have done an engine swap on it.

 

[CDW6212R]

That extra detail you just listed said it all, you are after a mild engine build, nothing really crazy, for a reliable SUV. The 302's will typically last forever if they were not neglected(sludge inside and low oil pressure etc).

The factory PCM can handle mild stuff just fine, but typically most people pick a cam on their own, and it ends u;p being less than ideal for tuning to be smooth etc. Most people will no listen to advice that tells them to not pick their own cam, so they end up researching cams themselves and still end up "picking" one.

The OEM computer can handle most common and popular SBF heads, intakes, and exhaust choices, tuners who can do those will have no problems with those. But the camshaft, that is super important to the final results, and being able to tune it to run well, smoothly, with no odd symptoms.

So I suggest doing the engine, work out the main details as you already have been, but also not selecting a cam. Instead, pay a professional who builds custom cams, and then plan to skip tuning to begin with. With a nice proper camshaft, the stock PCM program may have a good chance to run it okay, at least in the short term. That plan would be the easiest up front, if the engine is truly mild, stock size, and compression. There is power to gain with raising the compression, from the 9:1 range to 10:1 or more, but that requires the full tuning immediately, and compression over about 9.6:1 also requires premium fuel.

The Holley has a lot of support in forums and all over the place, I think you can find plenty of help with that.

Everything in parts for an engine are high. Heads used to be well under $1000, now most will push you near $1500 with valvetrain etc. Pistons are a few hundred for stockish, but over $600 for something great that will give you the compression you might be after. Intakes aren't bad if you buy used, hunting a while. Injectors get high fast depending on what level you need. That's why I hinted at stockish, or mild, the stock parts don't move the price up o require tuning. But push the want list for parts or power much, and the costs jump big time.

 

[JoshT]

I've tried talking to builders. Granted I was not seeking builders when I posted the questions and I was not paying them, but they decided to step in and give their advice anyway. I can tell you straight up that with their responses, I wouldn't give a plug nickle for their advice in the future. Essentially said that unless one were building a full on race engine, for a sports car, with top dollar components, it wasn't worth their time.

Having heard from cam and engine builders, I can completely understand why people ignore that advice. They tend to be a bunch of gatekeeping SnOBs. Will an engine make more power with the uber aluminum heads and their special ground cam? Absolutely. Can worked factory heads, intake, and OTS cam provide a nice improvement over stock? Absolutely. Not everyone is after every last iota of power. Some people fit the latter better, but those cam and engine builders don't want to entertain them at all. Build it their way or hit the highway.

I'm not saying that I'm going to either extreme, but at this point I have no interest in what they have to say about it.

I'm aware of the holley support forums. I was simply stating that I wonder if Decipha will tune them. If I get him to do this engine and I like his work, I'd be interested in getting him to do that engine as well. If he doesn't no problem, the that old FE is running as is with only the wizard setup and self learn. I do think it could benefit from a little attention though.

For the rest, we just won't be agreeing on everything. That's fine, it's an open forum and we are both entitled to our opinions. All that matters to the topic of this thread is that the transmission modifications are being put on hold for engine rebuild and suspension repairs/modifications.

 

[CDW6212R]

I'm sure you will end up very close to what you want, you spend time considering the goals and costs etc. I try hard to not be too specific on details, general suggestions usually help a lot more than pushing whatever my preferences are. I've seen many Explorers turn out less than expected, the cam is often a random part not designed for the actual vehicle etc. That's just one part, one item, but getting that a little wrong hurts more than any heads or intake that are way too large etc.

The cam should be left to an actual custom cam designer, that will result in the engine running better at all rpm's than 99% of all OTS cams. The cost is at least $100 more always, but the valve springs can also be matched better for extra results to gain; those cost a good bit more($275 kit) when you have to change them after already selecting OTS heads(springs). So a custom cam you will hear is only $100 extra, but that's not completely true. If you plan it right and do the heads(the valve springs) one time by getting the recommendation of the cam designer, then the cost is the different springs, plus the custom cam. Planning it early on and thoroughly, you can reduce the extra costs to something nearer to $100.

For a budget build with basically stock parts, the stock truck cam is great, the engine shifts at 5000rpm automatically, the old Mustangs with 302 HO's shifted at 4500rpm at most. So it's not a tiny cam at all, there's no need for a much bigger cam and roller rockers. The stock cam, or the stock HO cam are great for mild 302's. A custom cam for that wouldn't gain much at all. But alter the compression, and then the cam is almost required to change, and then the PCM tuning becomes a huge deal in many cases.