HHO: Is it alchemy? Or will it improve gas mileage on a ’99 4.0 SOHC Explorer?

[dogfriend]

Ok, that said... whay if you replaced the HHO generator with lets say a cylinder of H2 with a regulator as well as MAF enhancers check valves fire arrestors etc. Now the h2 gas is there and there is no draw on the alternator. Using the gasoline & H2 would it be feasable to get a savings? What does H2cost & how much would one pump into the intake

Hey I'm just tossing it out there to get peoples opinions & suggestions
What do you think?

Yes, it is feasible to use H2 as a fuel. Other people have already done it. I can't answer your question about cost savings, but I expect that any cost savings would be dependent on how cheaply you can get H2 compressed gas and how much your modifications would cost. I don't think it is likely that you would get positive cash flow from the project. :

 

[dvldoc]

I'm so happy to see life here, I though this thread was DEAD!
I've been trying to get some info from actual users of the HHO systems but I have had no luck. This thread seemed to be one of the most extensive I have yet dispite my posts and PMs to users who posted they used an HHO and who were online at the time, have proved fruitless, no replies. As much as I would like to believe this technology can work, the overpowering evidence from published documents and exposes' like NBC Dateline http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29899191/, & Mythbusters (not the greatest of sources) in conjunction with the ominous silence from the "testers" indicates to me that the excitement is more wishful thinking and that the HHO generator does not work.

Overpowering? Not one legitimate dyno test, Emissions test, Compurized log of fuel ecomonmy, and when challenged no HHO'er will provide the proof, nothing but excuses.

And no you cannot run a car on pure hydrogen, Fuel provides a second functiion and that is to cool the combustion chamber, Half dang HHO'er don't even know water in the form of steam is a normal part of combustion, for every gallon of fuel you burn your car creates about 1 gallon of water in the combustion process. Even if you could produce adequate amounts of hydrogen gas, your car still needs fuel to run or it will simply just just destroy itself, You can only have exhaust gas tempuratures run so high before you start chipping pistions and lifting heads.

You will never have any ASE certified master mechanics babbling on about HHO and there is a reason why. Because they know how a engine actually works. Plenty of science guys out there but half don't know jack about cars and it shows.

 

[dogfriend]

The old school way to do it:




The new school way to do it:

 

[Cabrera]

I have given ample time for the original advocates of this technology, the one's who have actually bought, made, installed, tweaked and USED their HHO units to speak up & let us know where they are, how it's working...
SOMETHING!!
I have emailed & sent private messages to some of the heavy players (I will not use names) and I have heard nothing. By the resounding silence do I infer that the HHO generator is exercise in futility that really does not work?

I actually took the time to read every post in this thread just to be brought up to speed, but the posts are inconclusive.
I am not trying to instigate anything, I'm just looking for answers from the users who did work & experimentation...IS IT WORTH IT???

 

[CDW6212R]

I also take from the lack of activity in these threads that it isn't helping.

 

[Josh]

Like I said before, I had a coworker who had good results with the mason jar version. He got greedy and ended up melting his unit on the way to work one day. He also drove a little Hyundai Accent. My unit also generated a lot of heat on the metal parts. I still think this is plausable, it just needs time to work itself out and for someone smarter than me to come up with a better process. If I had a test vehicle, I might have kept going. I think my biggest argument has been to never take no for an answer. In the future, if I get another small car, I will probably get back to it.

Cabrera or anybody else,
If you want some write ups I think I still have them from different sources. Let me know and I will send them to you. They are large files and can be a real sleeping pill though.

 

[dvldoc]

These kits have been out for how long? The only thing we hear is it was working well but I still need to work on it, It's always the same on every thread, Need to get this, need to try that, got to build it like this but never a shead of proof on anything. Once again I challenge anyone to find one legitmate dyno test with the kit on and it off ANYWERE. A legitmate emission test with the kit on and off and a simple data logger for 100 miles hwy driving then 50 miles mixed driving. Are all these guys spending all this time an money on these kits without basic proof they are getting any results is just crazy. Fellow a scangauge II is not that expensive. Plenty of other data loggers for under $250 bucks as well.

There's a reason this topic is banned or gets locked any forum dealing with performance. Can't show the proof then stop brining it up.

 

[Josh]

These kits have been out for how long? The only thing we hear is it was working well but I still need to work on it, It's always the same on every thread, Need to get this, need to try that, got to build it like this but never a shead of proof on anything. Once again I challenge anyone to find one legitmate dyno test with the kit on and it off ANYWERE. A legitmate emission test with the kit on and off and a simple data logger for 100 miles hwy driving then 50 miles mixed driving. Are all these guys spending all this time an money on these kits without basic proof they are getting any results is just crazy. Fellow a scangauge II is not that expensive. Plenty of other data loggers for under $250 bucks as well.

There's a reason this topic is banned or gets locked any forum dealing with performance. Can't show the proof then stop brining it up.

You are right and yes I am one of those people you so lovingly refer to. Hell even the people I used to e-mail dont answer anymore. If I had another 2k to buy me another test vehicle I would get back into it, but, I dont. If this thread makes you that upset then dont view it or get off your duff and do something besides rant. Add something to this experiment. Do you want someone else to do all the work for you and then you can jump on the band wagon when it finaly does work? I have invested over 500 in this experiment and a lot of hours trying to figure things out. I only have limited resources and times are tough now. Scan gauges only work on OBD 2 vehicles and I have one. I did not have a good experience with it. The mileage calculations were wrong since I was also using hand calculations as a backup. According to their website, they say it works on all vehicles for 2002. Not mine. Also, you can get it for 169 now. I have a lot of documentation and I have offered to share it with everyone. If you want it, I will send you everything I got.

 

[SwaintaN]

ill post my two cents, i have been HHO inactive due to a lot of things!

I was only able to get HHO to work in mine, when I used 2 one gallon jars ran into a bubbler/safety unit. Also had to use an efie, it helped but I took it off when we did the lift and when we got the van, the van got better mpg without it, so i just stopped using it on the explorer. but there are certain cars it seems to work better on, 95 or older and non MAF style.

 

[dvldoc]

:thumbdwn:

You are right and yes I am one of those people you so lovingly refer to. Hell even the people I used to e-mail dont answer anymore. If I had another 2k to buy me another test vehicle I would get back into it, but, I dont. If this thread makes you that upset then dont view it or get off your duff and do something besides rant. Add something to this experiment. Do you want someone else to do all the work for you and then you can jump on the band wagon when it finaly does work? I have invested over 500 in this experiment and a lot of hours trying to figure things out. I only have limited resources and times are tough now. Scan gauges only work on OBD 2 vehicles and I have one. I did not have a good experience with it. The mileage calculations were wrong since I was also using hand calculations as a backup. According to their website, they say it works on all vehicles for 2002. Not mine. Also, you can get it for 169 now. I have a lot of documentation and I have offered to share it with everyone. If you want it, I will send you everything I got.

Can you provide a legitimate dyno test that shows a actuall increase in horsepower or Torque?

A emissions test that shows a significate reduction in hydrocarbon emissions? By the way if you cannot reduce combustion temps below 2300F this does not happen because above that is why they are formed.

Can you show a actuall test that shows a reduction in fuel use vs just testimony personal or otherwise.

The fact that anyone has to look for hours, days, years and none of this info exist answers the question.

I don't invest or waist my time in a product I know that does not work, Now they got all new scams out, MAF, IAT, and other little devices to trick the PCM to lean out the vehicle. Which would do the same thing with ourr without the system in place.

Can a single HHO user even show a simple dyno pull or emission test showing the vehicle Air fuel ratio the answer is no.

Can you show a actuall reduction in IAT temps with these systems? Very simple to do as well? Not one HHO will show this even though it's claimed it lowers IAT'

I do what I know works and that's water alcohol injection, it's not really for fuel economy but on diesels that's just the after effect. It can be proven on the dyno, emission test, computer data logger of fuel useage, ect ect.

HHO's always say they got a increase in power, the butt dyno does not count as proof.

Here's a bet for you. Do a dyno test 2 pulls one with the kit on then with it off and post your numbers. I'll send you $50 paypal if you do (That is not a joke) We have dyno tested these kits and they are a joke most cars lost power not gained. So far I have never been taken up on the offer.


Please explain how you can increase fuel economy without increasing the engines power at the same load with no increase in fuel use?

As all HHO threads go, none of the above facts will be provided period! I reply to these because this scam need to go ahead and die. When challenged for actuall proof all these threads come up empty handed every time.

 

[briwayjones]

:thumbdwn:

Can you provide a legitimate dyno test that shows a actuall increase in horsepower or Torque?

Here's a bet for you. Do a dyno test 2 pulls one with the kit on then with it off and post your numbers. I'll send you $50 paypal if you do (That is not a joke) We have dyno tested these kits and they are a joke most cars lost power not gained. So far I have never been taken up on the offer.


Please explain how you can increase fuel economy without increasing the engines power at the same load with no increase in fuel use?

What is this kick you're on that a dyno test is going to show anything related to mileage and if a HHO is working or not? Why do you think a HHO has to increase horsepower to work?

The way a HHO is supposed to work is that it produces hydrogen. The hydrogen replaces gasoline as fuel to burn. Therefore the engine burns less gasoline, therefore getting better mileage. The horsepower is not increased, gasoline consumption is just decreased. A HHO is not a power adder that makes it so the engine doesn't have to work as hard therefore increasing mileage. It just produces an alternative fuel as a supplement to gasoline so the engine burns less gasoline.

 

[Josh]

OK, what part about limited resources, no test vehicle and experiment dont you understand? No test vehicle no system NO DYNO. I am not saying its going to work at all. I was trying to make a working to system. If it worked I would have reported my findings and invited someone to reproduce my experiment. If it didnt work, I would have reported it that way. I have been on this board for a while and have tried or have halped many people with different problems. So maybe some one(Not you) will find a solution and maybe not. Tinkering is a hobby of many and this thread is a place to share ideas and maybe someday come up with a solution or maybe not. Since no one has reported back in so long its safe to assume that no one will meet your challenge. Your opinion has been noted, thanks for stopping by.

 

[gijoecam]

The way a HHO is supposed to work is that it produces hydrogen. The hydrogen replaces gasoline as fuel to burn. Therefore the engine burns less gasoline, therefore getting better mileage. The horsepower is not increased, gasoline consumption is just decreased. A HHO is not a power adder that makes it so the engine doesn't have to work as hard therefore increasing mileage. It just produces an alternative fuel as a supplement to gasoline so the engine burns less gasoline.

That's the *theory* the proponents spoout off, but lets just think about it rationally for a few seconds...

You're adding an unmetered volume of an unknown mixture of gas into an engine that's moving (at idle) 2 liters of air per revolution of the crank (in one revolution, only half the cylinders are on the intake stroke). 1200 liters per minute. Some of these small systems put out (at best) about 2 liters in a minute... And that's at idle. At, say, 2400 rpms (a normal cruising freeway speed), that's about 4800 liters of air the engine is moving.... and the HHO generator is still plugging away at 2 liters per minute.... the brown gas is, therefore, roughly 0.04166% of the incoming air, and the hydrogen gas, which is what proponents allege creates the 'extra power', is only 2/3 of the brown gas being generated.

I may as well pee over Niagara Falls and claim I'm raising Lake Ontario's level.... It's about the same ratio.

Second, how does the engine know how much fuel it needs to introduce into the engine at any given moment? It uses a combination of sensors to determine fuel injector duty cycle for any given speed, load, gear, temp, exhaust oxygen content, etc. At what point in the process does the engine find out that this unknown, unmetered gas is being used and cut back the fuel injection?

Dynos show a LOT more than just raw horsepower numbers. I had an issue with my motorcycle... it never made more than 11 Hp on the dyno while we were troubleshooting it... We were logging engine sensor data up the ying-yang, along with wideband exhaust readings. It would seem that, if these homemade HHO systems really worked, there would be SOMEONE someplace that had put it on a dyno, logged the numbers (including fuel consumption, injector duty cycle, etc.) back to back with the system on and the system off... doesn't seem like it would be too hard to do, and it would certainly shut up the nay-sayers... like me.

 

[Cabrera]

:thumbdwn:

Can you provide a legitimate dyno test that shows a actuall increase in horsepower or Torque?

A emissions test that shows a significate reduction in hydrocarbon emissions? By the way if you cannot reduce combustion temps below 2300F this does not happen because above that is why they are formed.

Can you show a actuall test that shows a reduction in fuel use vs just testimony personal or otherwise.

dvldoc,
I have to admit you are putting too much emphasis on "dyno tests" etc. Most of the HHO users won't go to a dyno...it costs money. People do this to save money, working people who spend time well... working. The ones who do go to the dyno, usually are trying to prove something so they can SELL you something.
The best you can ask for is a sincere mileage logging with the HHO generator vs without.

If people have gotten no improvements, so be it. If they have & they say so then what I would like to do is ask for their design & installation so that maybe I can also enjoy the benefits but then improve on them and contribute. It is always better to build upon someone's foundation to improve than to conceptualize. That said if the "testing" you demand is so critical to you then I would suggest you do the above and then YOU dyno & emission test yourself and foot the bill yourself.

Nobody wants to throw their money away on "SNAKE OIL" but this technology has some merit, yet not perfected or realized. There is precedence here. No one thought the airplane would fly, about microwave cooking, the horseless carriage possible! With work & effort they all succeeded. If you don't agree that this technology is plausable then you have your answer and move on to something that you feel will work. That would be my response. If I were convinced that HHO is a scam, I wouldn't waste my time posting on this thread.

Demand proof from people selling you something, but work with & communicate with the individuals who have been trying to perfect this technology without any personal gain.

 

[gijoecam]

dvldoc,
I have to admit you are putting too much emphasis on "dyno tests" etc. Most of the HHO users won't go to a dyno...it costs money. People do this to save money, working people who spend time well... working. The ones who do go to the dyno, usually are trying to prove something so they can SELL you something.
The best you can ask for is a sincere mileage logging with the HHO generator vs without.

So, without using a dyno, how, exactly, would one scientifically and analytically analyze the change in fuel economy due to adding an HHO generator to the system??? Fuel mileage tracked by the driver on an open road in an uncontrolled set of operating conditions, no matter how 'accurately' they are tracked, are estimates at BEST. You might *think* you drive the same ever time, but as humans, it's just not possible... there are far, far too many variables outside our control to get an accurate result. It's just not possible.

So, again, how would you propose one obtain factual, accurate data on the effects of an HHO system on an engine's efficiency without a dyno??

Nobody wants to throw their money away on "SNAKE OIL" but this technology has some merit, yet not perfected or realized. There is precedence here. No one thought the airplane would fly, about microwave cooking, the horseless carriage possible! With work & effort they all succeeded.

But the critical difference is that the airplane and the microwave, and the horseless carriage were all based on sound scientific principles, not some high school science experiment someone cooked up in a garage after a high school electrolysis experiment. (airplane = bernoulli's principle, microwave = Percy Spencer's magnetron research for Raytheon, horseless carriage is ultimately based on fire... a cave-man principle)

Demand proof from people selling you something, but work with & communicate with the individuals who have been trying to perfect this technology without any personal gain.

Are you not trying to sell us on the presumption that it somehow works??

 

[briwayjones]

Dynos show a LOT more than just raw horsepower numbers. I had an issue with my motorcycle... it never made more than 11 Hp on the dyno while we were troubleshooting it... We were logging engine sensor data up the ying-yang, along with wideband exhaust readings. It would seem that, if these homemade HHO systems really worked, there would be SOMEONE someplace that had put it on a dyno, logged the numbers (including fuel consumption, injector duty cycle, etc.) back to back with the system on and the system off... doesn't seem like it would be too hard to do, and it would certainly shut up the nay-sayers... like me.

I guess my point is the main point of a dyno is to read power numbers. You can hook up a data logger, drive around and read the fuel consumption and other things you are talking about without a dyno.

 

[briwayjones]

Second, how does the engine know how much fuel it needs to introduce into the engine at any given moment? It uses a combination of sensors to determine fuel injector duty cycle for any given speed, load, gear, temp, exhaust oxygen content, etc. At what point in the process does the engine find out that this unknown, unmetered gas is being used and cut back the fuel injection?

That was part of the point of this thread, to figure out these things.

 

[Josh]

So, without using a dyno, how, exactly, would one scientifically and analytically analyze the change in fuel economy due to adding an HHO generator to the system??? Fuel mileage tracked by the driver on an open road in an uncontrolled set of operating conditions, no matter how 'accurately' they are tracked, are estimates at BEST. You might *think* you drive the same ever time, but as humans, it's just not possible... there are far, far too many variables outside our control to get an accurate result. It's just not possible.

So, again, how would you propose one obtain factual, accurate data on the effects of an HHO system on an engine's efficiency without a dyno??



But the critical difference is that the airplane and the microwave, and the horseless carriage were all based on sound scientific principles, not some high school science experiment someone cooked up in a garage after a high school electrolysis experiment. (airplane = bernoulli's principle, microwave = Percy Spencer's magnetron research for Raytheon, horseless carriage is ultimately based on fire... a cave-man principle)



Are you not trying to sell us on the presumption that it somehow works??

Come on man, some of us are not highly educated such as you seem to be. we are doing just that, experimenting. We are trying to share ideas with the hopes of a solution SOME DAY. Once again nobody is selling anything! If people want to spend thier money on tinkering than that is not for you judge. How about using some of that brain power for something positive. All your doing is stirring the pot and for what?

 

[gijoecam]

I guess my point is the main point of a dyno is to read power numbers. You can hook up a data logger, drive around and read the fuel consumption and other things you are talking about without a dyno.

I've been called a lot of things, and smart's not one of 'em, I assure you.

Not accurately... It's not a controlled environment. If the data's not reproducable, it's useless. Dynos are not used solely for raw max horsepower numbers... there's a whole lot more to tuning an engine than wide open throttle, and without some way of accurately measuring that data (any data logger is deriving that information from the on-board system, not measuring it) the data's garbage.

I'm not stirring any pots... I'm simply making a sound argument based on logic and sound scientific principles. How is that pot stirring? Wanna argue about gravity next?

 

[briwayjones]

I've been called a lot of things, and smart's not one of 'em, I assure you.

Not accurately... It's not a controlled environment. If the data's not reproducable, it's useless. Dynos are not used solely for raw max horsepower numbers... there's a whole lot more to tuning an engine than wide open throttle, and without some way of accurately measuring that data (any data logger is deriving that information from the on-board system, not measuring it) the data's garbage.

If you want you can make a controlled enough environment. Pick a long flat road that you can go the same consistent speed on. Pick a still day with little or no wind. It would be plenty good enough to see if something like a HHO generator was making a difference. Much more accurate than determining your MPG by dividing the amount of gallons you put in your tank divided by the number of miles you drove even if you averaged ten fill-ups together which is the common way of determining MPG.