E85 Ethanol Fuel

[MtDew]

Hey Gang,

The local stations in our area are just beginning to offer the new E85 Ethanol fuel. The research that I have done pinpoints good points and bad points but overall, it appears that the good outweigh the bad. Regular unleaded 87 fuel in our area is 2.40 per gallon vs. the E85 at 1.69 per gallon.

According to what I've read, your vehicle has to be FFV (Flexable Fuel Vehicle) certified to burn this fuel and, believe it or not, most of the 4.0 Explorers from 2000 and up are FFV. My V8 Ex is not however on the list of vehicles that can burn this fuel.

I'm finding that gas mileage decreases with the use of this fuel but it burns cleaner (because it is 105 octane) and emits less junk (CO2, Greenhouse gases, etc.) into the atmosphere. Because of its high alcohol content the engine runs cooler and life expectancy is longer.

When I was fueling the last time the station attendants told me they now offered this fuel and told me I was crazy not to try it. I was told not to worry about my Ex not being FFV rated. He said ANY vehicle could burn this fuel................... Does anyone know for sure that this is the case?????? I find it had to believe and I certainly don't want to fry my V8 or bring on any mechanical issues on a perfectly running rig just to save a few bucks at the pumps.

Thanks

 

[briwayjones]

I ran it for a tank on a '96 Explorer because I didn't have a choice with no ill effects. But that was only one tank.

 

[Bronco638]

It's too bad you don't have a scanner so you could monitor your EGT (among other things). You could try a 50/50 mix of E85 and Low Grade gas. That would cost you about $2/gal. See what happens.

 

[MtDew]

Does anyone know exactly what problems can arise from running E85 in a car not designed for it?

 

[Explodersport]

I dont have first hand experience with running it, but I did a entire report on ethanol fuels for one of my engineering classes. Basically any car can run ethanol, the only reason they limit the cars is liability. Older carbed cars cant run it becuase of rubber parts (like gaskets and fittings) which the ethanol will actually degrease and eventually break down. As long as your car is FI, you should be good to go (or even a carbed car as long as newer parts are being used). As far as the exhaust, it is not bad. The major bi-product is NOx, which breaks down mucous membranes. So if you have a runny nose, go sniff your exhaust for a little bit. As far as getting lower MPG, I never heard of that, I woulda thought the other way around, but like I said before, no first hand experience.
On another note, you can make your own ethanol Biofuel for about 60some cents a gallon or even cheaper. Just get food waste (corn, potatoes, breads, ect.) and make a distillary, there is a website on how to do it for like $30 in parts from lowes. Make sure you use food waste, that way you cant get in trouble for moonshining as it wont be suitable to drink if you use waste. The guys who run the site have a prison nearby and go every day after lunch and collect the leftovers for free and use that to make ethanol. So many possibilities....
As much research as I did, I cant be held responsible for any damages to your car if you decide to do it, but you already knew that.

 

[Longjohn119]

I've run nothing but 10% ethanol mix in my vehicles for almost 25 years ... my Dad owned a farm supply business and was one of the original 10 places to sell ethanol in Iowa (And the nation) ...

Around here since the gas prices have risen so much, it's 10 cents cheaper per gallon than 87 octane regular (It used to be the same price less than a year ago) and about everyone I know is using it now ... even the hardcore naysayers from a few years ago ...

The only problem I had was back in the beginning when older cars' rubber parts couldn't handle it and plugged fuel filters from it cleaning out the gas tanks but those problems don't seem to occur anymore (Since the tank is plastic in an Ex the latter isn't a problem anyway) rubber was replaced with neoprene or similar already when 'gasohol' came along, anything built after the mid-70's was safe

I just bought a '91 Explorer with low mileage and got almost 22 MPG on my first trip and I could have done a lot better if I wasn't following a friend with a camper and boat in tow .... I'm not so sure there is all that big a difference in MPG despite the octane bump (89) .... not 10 cents per gallon difference anyway

I know some Japenese cars had a problem with it in the late 80's but reprogramming/redesigning the computer took care of that, it had to do with air/fuel mixture but I don't believe that's a problem with a MAF system, it seems to adjust

I've only had one engine ever blow out of dozens of vehicles (Our business ran 8 vehicles at a time) and it was a '77 F250 400 CID with over 200,000 on it when it spun a rod bearing ... come to think of it technically it never did blow but made a lot of racket for a week until we got another motor to put in it ... still it was able to drive into the bay under it's own power for the engine swap

 

[Explodersport]

Sounds like LongJohn knows his stuff first hand. Go with that, he obviously has the experience.

 

[MtDew]

Thanks for the info guys!

The gas mileage issue is for real. I have a friend with a 99 Taurus that is FFV friendly and he has been running this stuff for awhile. He tells me that there is a noticable difference in the gas mileage and claims it could be as much as a 15% decrease. Remember, this is E85 (85%ethanal) and not "gasohol" (10% ethanal) He also reports that his Taurus is sluggish when first started until it warms up a bit. After warm up he seems to think it runs better (possibly due to the high 105 octane of E85). I've also read that the percentage of ethanol has to be decreased when its used in a cold climate. My understanding is that vehicles become hard to start in cold weather running E85. Even with fuel injection.

The National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php acknowledges that a gallon of ethanol does not contain the "energy" of a gallon of gas, thus the lower mileage. In fact, some of the yearly fuel costs charts that I've seen predict that, in some vehicles, ethanol may costs you more in fuel costs that regular gas. The only benefit ( and its a good one) would be less emmissions and the fact that it is renewable and gives our farmers a shot in the arm. A nice side effect would be less gas consumption in our country (85% for each vehicle burning E85) thus less demand and possibly a decrease in price.

You may be able to produce 10% ethanol fuel for .60/gal but I'm reading that it costs over 3.00/gal to produce E85 and that the reason for the low 1.69/gal price at the pump is a government subsidy. The feds like the idea that E85 is renewable from resouces that we have in our country and could make us less dependent on foreign oil. Not to mention the environmental advantages. This is a good idea, but if the feds are paying for it and we pay for the costs of our government in taxes, that means that in the long haul, we pay for it in taxes even though we see a cheaper price at the pump.

What I'm really wondering and can't seem to find any answer, is what makes a vehicle FFA friendly. All that I can find on the web is that the production costs of a FFA vehicle is the same and therefore the sticker price is the same. I have yet to find any technical info as to the difference. Anyone out there know???

Thanks

 

[Explodersport]

As far as what makes a car FFA I would think is just the fact that they make sure to watch out for the parts that cannot handle the ethanol, like the tank and gaskets and stuff. One of the reasons ethanol is hard to start when its cold is that ethanol is like a sponge for water, it will suck up water from ANYWHERE. when your car runs hot and then gets shut off in cold climates, the tank will get some condensate on it and the ethanol will pull this in. This will also make the car hard to start if the FIs arent working properly. Water, if atomized correctly by proper working fuel injectors will combust with no problems. Water has 2 elements that fire loves, hydrogen and oxygen. the only problem is if it isnt atomized it has the opposite effect and can lead to hydrolock. Just clean your injectors and fuel system, and run the ethanol and you will definately be able to run it.

 

[MtDew]

As far as what makes a car FFA I would think is just the fact that they make sure to watch out for the parts that cannot handle the ethanol, like the tank and gaskets and stuff. One of the reasons ethanol is hard to start when its cold is that ethanol is like a sponge for water, it will suck up water from ANYWHERE. when your car runs hot and then gets shut off in cold climates, the tank will get some condensate on it and the ethanol will pull this in. This will also make the car hard to start if the FIs arent working properly. Water, if atomized correctly by proper working fuel injectors will combust with no problems. Water has 2 elements that fire loves, hydrogen and oxygen. the only problem is if it isnt atomized it has the opposite effect and can lead to hydrolock. Just clean your injectors and fuel system, and run the ethanol and you will definately be able to run it.

Thanks for the info!

All the same, I think I'm going to wait for some others to try it first. I'm sort of partial to my engine

Better to let someone else order a crate motor than me

 

[Explodersport]

haha, perfectly understandable. If they offered it around here I would be your guinea pig, but they dont. oh, I did have an old nissan I ran off of MEK once. they made cars back in the 80s with the stuff that would make over 1000 HP. but that was just for fun since MEK costs like $18 a gallon. haha

 

[shermy]

i'm running a tank of e85 now. the only problem i have is that my check engine light came on and is saying to the engine is running to lean. anyone know how or if i can remedy this. could i get the computer reprogrammed?

 

[MtDew]

i'm running a tank of e85 now. the only problem i have is that my check engine light came on and is saying to the engine is running to lean. anyone know how or if i can remedy this. could i get the computer reprogrammed?

What engine are you running? 5.0 or 4.0?? I don't think the Explorers prior to 2000 are setup for E85

I live close to the area in your PM? You too?

 

[shermy]

i've got a 97 with the 4.0 ohv. your right it's probably not set-up for it but i wanted to try it. but it's my understanding that all ford did to the 4.0 to make it ffv is program the computer to detect the type of fuel and make the nessecary adjustments. i did just find this website for a converter: http://www.abcesso.santu.com/
i might look in to it.


and yes i live in that city. that's the only station around that sells it i figured you had to live close.

 

[MtDew]

i've got a 97 with the 4.0 ohv. your right it's probably not set-up for it but i wanted to try it. but it's my understanding that all ford did to the 4.0 to make it ffv is program the computer to detect the type of fuel and make the nessecary adjustments. i did just find this website for a converter: http://www.abcesso.santu.com/
i might look in to it.


and yes i live in that city. that's the only station around that sells it i figured you had to live close.

I knew it wouldn't take long for someone to come up with a converter

After the depressing results my friend got with his car, I'm not sure it's worth the effort. He actually saw a 30% decrease in mpg. Some simple math and we determined that he actually was spending more money for E85 than he would have for gas Go figure!

How's your mpg and do you see any "side effects" from running this stuff??

 

[MtDew]

i'm running a tank of e85 now. the only problem i have is that my check engine light came on and is saying to the engine is running to lean. anyone know how or if i can remedy this. could i get the computer reprogrammed?

I mean besides the check engine light.. IE: hard starting, bad performance or throttle response

My friend reported all of the above, yet his car runs great and performs well on gas

 

[twheats]

Does anyone know exactly what problems can arise from running E85 in a car not designed for it?

In cold weather, (below zero) you may have starting problems. E85 does vaporize as well as gasoline. It can "puddle" in the ports and cylinders.
BTW, ethanol is an energy negeative fuel. It takes more energy to produce than is returned when it is burned.

 

[Ford_Racing_Guy]

i've compared the regular 87 to the 89 blend of 10 percent ethanol that is sold at the Local Kwik Trip and i notice that gas mileage is slightly decreased if i run the 89 with the ethanol blend.

 

[mynameisaric]

so where is this fancy fuel being sold? i want some of this 1.60 a gallon gas. i went a year with my check engine light on(smashed 02 sensor from bottoming out) and i passed emissions. so i can live with a light as long as my wallet is fat. but if i get that much worse mileage.. it may not be worth it. someone should make a machine that turns tap water and 3 fresh bananas into a 55 gallon drum of premium gasoline.

 

[mynameisaric]

according to the website..... :
"

Does it take more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than the energy we get out of it?

Response:

No. This has been a common misconception of the ethanol industry, that it takes more energy to make ethanol than is available to the final consumer. Remember, ethanol is produced from plant matter, today dominated by corn, wheat, potatoes, sorgum, etc. Plants grow through the use of energy provided by the sun and are a renewable resources. In the future, ethanol will be produced from waste products or "energy crops." In fact, a partner of the NEVC, BC International (BCI), is currently constructing an ethanol production plant in Louisiana that will use sugar cane waste to produce ethanol. Additionally, BCI is considering the establishment of ethanol production facilities in California that would use the waste hulls from rice growers and wood waste from the forrest industry to produce ethanol. Energy crops such as perennial switch grasses, timothy, and other high-output/low-input crops will be used in the future.

Current research prepared by Argonne National Laboratory (a U.S. Department of Energy Laboratory), indicates a 38% gain in the overall energy input/output equation for the corn-to-ethanol process. That is, if 100 BTUs of energy is used to plant corn, harvest the crop, transport it, etc., 138 BTUs of energy is available in the fuel ethanol. Corn yields and processing technologies have improved significantly over the past 20 years and they continue to do so, making ethanol production less and less energy intensive."